From martin.benkert at gmail.com  Mon Feb  8 12:02:31 2010
From: martin.benkert at gmail.com (Martin Benkert)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 20:02:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ID3 Dev] Synchronised lyrics/text frames and Byte-Order-Markers
Message-ID: <loom.20100208T205819-803@post.gmane.org>

Hi,

the synchronized lyrics frame SLT/SYLT supports text encodings, and also
Byte-Order-Markers (BOMs).

It has a 'Content Descriptor' which is simply an encoded string and might
have a BOM, just like all other encoded frames.

But it also has a binary structure of items called 'syncs', which have
this structure

     Terminated text to be synced (typically a syllable)
     Sync identifier (terminator to above string)   $00 (00)
     Time stamp                                     $xx (xx ...)

The first item is plain text. I guess it is encoded according to the
specified encoding of the frame.

But what about BOMs here? In a typical file there might be some hundred
syncs (if they are syllables). If they all have individual BOMs this will
be a lot of data. However, if they do not have BOMs at all, it is not
clear how for instance Little-Endian encoding might be specified.

There are four ways it might be intended to be

 - syncs do not have any BOMs at all. This would be nice, but it implies
   Big-Endian byte-order.
 - the very first sync might have a BOM that is also applied to all
   following syncs. This appears to be the best way. It also allows to
   specify Little-Endian byte-order. But the ID3 standards do not specify
   this in any way.
 - all syncs can have their own individual BOMs. This would be crazy - to
   say the least. But it would comply with the ID3 standards (at least in
   an implicit way).  	
 - the BOM used by 'Content Descriptor' is also used for the syncs. Might be
   nice - but it beaks all conventions: Other frames with two encoded strings
   (COM/COMM, COMR, GEO/GEOB, ULT/USLT) all might have individual BOMs for
   text fields - only ID3v2.4 specifies 'All strings in the same frame SHALL
   have the same byte order'.

This somehow indicates that the lyrics in a SLT/SYLT frame appears to be a
real oddity with respect to BOMs.

Question here is: Is there a recommended way to specify the byte-order of
the lyrics of synchronized lyrics frames SLT/SYLT?

Thanks
Martin


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From jwhite at cdtag.com  Thu Feb 25 10:45:13 2010
From: jwhite at cdtag.com (Jud White)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:45:13 -0500
Subject: [ID3 Dev] NUDGE: Tags used by common MP3 players?
In-Reply-To: <1e267dfe1002250840r673ba2dfh3dcc144775a9a97a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1e267dfe1002250840r673ba2dfh3dcc144775a9a97a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f4389651002251045j5ed4d9b1q43061f2c7fc183ed@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Paul,

My personal guess:

ID3v2.3 is most supported.

TALB
TYER
TIT2
TPE1
TRCK
TCON
APIC

It's worth noting iTunes APIC bug in ID3v2.4 - they don't sync safe the
frame size. It's not just APIC but it's probably most noticeable in this
frame. If you want to remain consistent with the written spec when writing
tags and still have iTunes pick up the APIC frame put it at the end of the
tag, they'll overread but truncate before padding. Works for 1 picture
anyway. Again that's just ID3v2.4.

I'd just write text in TCON, forget ID3v1 genres, except for reading.


On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman at gmail.com>wrote:

> [[ <clonk><clonk> Is this thing on? ]]
>
> Greetings. Has someone compiled a list of common MP3 hardware/software
> players and the ID3v2 tags that they use for display? As I write some
> software, I want to be sure I'm adding the tags that will be useful in
> most/all players.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org
>
>
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From lcarreon at bigpond.net.au  Wed Feb  3 03:26:21 2010
From: lcarreon at bigpond.net.au (Leo Carreon)
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 22:26:21 +1100
Subject: [ID3 Dev] Query on music CD identifier frame- MCI/MCDI
Message-ID: <835A422FCCDB4F4BB6C189328ACA516C@lfc110>

Hi,

I have been studying the ID3 v2.x specification and I got stuck on the MCI/MCDI frame.  It isn't clear from the specifications what the format of the binary data of this frame is.  Does anyone have any information on the format of this binary data?  The specifications keep referring to the CD table of contents but when I look at my copy of IEC 60908 ed.2, it isn't clear which data is being referred to.  As I have said, any information will be much appreciated.

Regards,
Leo
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From njh at aelius.com  Thu Feb  4 01:23:51 2010
From: njh at aelius.com (Nicholas J Humfrey)
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 09:23:51 +0000
Subject: [ID3 Dev] Query on music CD identifier frame (MCI/MCDI)
In-Reply-To: <15740450.1265076996262.JavaMail.root@nschwwebs03p>
References: <15740450.1265076996262.JavaMail.root@nschwwebs03p>
Message-ID: <0E55393C-3961-4DB4-8E7C-75F391CBF8C1@aelius.com>

I can't answer your question directly as I am not familiar with IEC  
60908.

However I can recommend the cross-platform library libdiscid:
http://musicbrainz.org/doc/libdiscid

This calculate identifiers for CDs based on the table of contents.  
This isn't unique but it is the closest that you will get to an  
identifier for every CD. There is also a branch that reads MCNs and  
ISRCs from CDs, although not all CDs contain this information.

There is infomation about tagging with MusicBrainz metadata here:
http://musicbrainz.org/doc/MusicBrainzTag

I hope this is of some help.

nick.


On 2 Feb 2010, at 02:16, "lcarreon at bigpond.net.au" <lcarreon at bigpond.net.au 
 > wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have been studying the ID3 v2.x specifications and I have  
> encountered the music CD idenfitier which isn't very clear to me.   
> Is there any additional information concerning the format of the  
> binary data of a music CD identifier frame?  The ID3 v2.x  
> specifications mention the CD table of contents.  I have a copy of  
> IEC 60908 ed.2 but it's not clear to me which part of this  
> specification the music CD identifier frame is referring to.  Does  
> anyone know which section/page of IEC 60908 ed.2 I should be  
> referring to?
>
> Regards,
> Leo
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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From paul.hoffman at gmail.com  Thu Feb 25 13:21:52 2010
From: paul.hoffman at gmail.com (Paul Hoffman)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:21:52 -0800
Subject: [ID3 Dev] NUDGE: Tags used by common MP3 players?
In-Reply-To: <05709234-D8B0-43E1-AB24-030C57EA16FE@aelius.com>
References: <1e267dfe1002250840r673ba2dfh3dcc144775a9a97a@mail.gmail.com>
	 <05709234-D8B0-43E1-AB24-030C57EA16FE@aelius.com>
Message-ID: <1e267dfe1002251321t34b927a7ma3994842a4a59d7b@mail.gmail.com>

Sure, but is there a definitive list of the tags that iTunes supports?
And does anyone care about other hardware/software? I would hope that
someone has tested (at least) Windows Media foo and Zune.

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From mike at muzikbrowzer.com  Fri Feb 26 06:16:41 2010
From: mike at muzikbrowzer.com (Michael Makuch)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 08:16:41 -0600
Subject: [ID3 Dev] NUDGE: Tags used by common MP3 players?
In-Reply-To: <f4389651002251045j5ed4d9b1q43061f2c7fc183ed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1e267dfe1002250840r673ba2dfh3dcc144775a9a97a@mail.gmail.com> <f4389651002251045j5ed4d9b1q43061f2c7fc183ed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B87D7C9.4080401@muzikbrowzer.com>

Below is the list of tags which I have come to support in my version of
the id3 util found in the id3lib. My www.muzikbrowzer.com uses TCON TPE1
TALB TIT2 TRCK TLEN TYER APIC.

I use TLEN as sort of a suggestion. I will display TLEN if present (in
appropriate places) but then if/when I have the opportunity to calculate
the actual  duration then I override the TLEN. TYER I use for displaying
albums in order of release date.

$ /usr/local/bin/id3
id3 [options] <file> # w/out options display tag info.  options:
     -v      <value> # id3 version (1 or 2)
     -dt             # delete tag (version 1 or 2 if specified else both
     -df     <value> # delete tag field
     -getart <value> # getart, writes to <file>
     -TCON   <value> # genre
     -TPE1   <value> # artist
     -TALB   <value> # album
     -TIT2   <value> # title
     -TRCK   <value> # track
     -TLEN   <value> # length
     -TYER   <value> # year
     -TPOS   <value> # part in set
     -TPUB   <value> # publisher
     -UFID   <value> # ufid
     -TMED   <value> # dig...
     -COMM   <value> # comment
     -APIC   <value> # art file, reads from <file>

Cheers

Jud White wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> My personal guess:
>
> ID3v2.3 is most supported.
>
> TALB
> TYER
> TIT2
> TPE1
> TRCK
> TCON
> APIC
>
> It's worth noting iTunes APIC bug in ID3v2.4 - they don't sync safe
> the frame size. It's not just APIC but it's probably most noticeable
> in this frame. If you want to remain consistent with the written spec
> when writing tags and still have iTunes pick up the APIC frame put it
> at the end of the tag, they'll overread but truncate before padding.
> Works for 1 picture anyway. Again that's just ID3v2.4.
>
> I'd just write text in TCON, forget ID3v1 genres, except for reading.
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman at gmail.com
> <mailto:paul.hoffman at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     [[ <clonk><clonk> Is this thing on? ]]
>
>     Greetings. Has someone compiled a list of common MP3 hardware/software
>     players and the ID3v2 tags that they use for display? As I write some
>     software, I want to be sure I'm adding the tags that will be useful in
>     most/all players.
>
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>     To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org
>     <mailto:id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org>
>     For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org
>     <mailto:id3v2-help at id3.org>
>
>



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From martin.benkert at gmail.com  Wed Feb 10 14:45:25 2010
From: martin.benkert at gmail.com (Martin Benkert)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 22:45:25 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ID3 Dev] Re: Synchronised lyrics/text frames and Byte-Order-Markers
References: <loom.20100208T205819-803@post.gmane.org> <374011.69244.qm@web27002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20100210T234307-484@post.gmane.org>

Thanks for your quick response.

It was my mistake. I was assuming the sync-lyrics text was supposed
to be just like the unsync-lyrics text, only with injected timestamps.

I should have read the specs a couple more times - damn!

Anyway, my 'crazy' was *NOT* about memory. It was about redundant
information.

But it seems that this is how BOMs are working.

And it makes the ID3 standards consistent.

Thanks
Martin 



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From lcarreon at bigpond.net.au  Thu Feb  4 23:33:05 2010
From: lcarreon at bigpond.net.au (Leo Carreon)
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 18:33:05 +1100
Subject: [ID3 Dev] Re: [SPAM]Re: [ID3 Dev] Query on music CD identifier frame (MCI/MCDI)
In-Reply-To: <0E55393C-3961-4DB4-8E7C-75F391CBF8C1@aelius.com>
References: <15740450.1265076996262.JavaMail.root@nschwwebs03p> <0E55393C-3961-4DB4-8E7C-75F391CBF8C1@aelius.com>
Message-ID: <EA2D50F6A9264BC69136E5266BDA4F73@lfc110>

Hi Nick,

Thank you for your comments.

Leo

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nicholas J Humfrey" <njh at aelius.com>
To: <id3v2 at id3.org>
Cc: <lcarreon at bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 8:23 PM
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [ID3 Dev] Query on music CD identifier frame (MCI/MCDI)


>I can't answer your question directly as I am not familiar with IEC  60908.
>
> However I can recommend the cross-platform library libdiscid:
> http://musicbrainz.org/doc/libdiscid
>
> This calculate identifiers for CDs based on the table of contents.  This 
> isn't unique but it is the closest that you will get to an  identifier for 
> every CD. There is also a branch that reads MCNs and  ISRCs from CDs, 
> although not all CDs contain this information.
>
> There is infomation about tagging with MusicBrainz metadata here:
> http://musicbrainz.org/doc/MusicBrainzTag
>
> I hope this is of some help.
>
> nick.
>
>
> On 2 Feb 2010, at 02:16, "lcarreon at bigpond.net.au" 
> <lcarreon at bigpond.net.au
> > wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have been studying the ID3 v2.x specifications and I have  encountered 
>> the music CD idenfitier which isn't very clear to me.   Is there any 
>> additional information concerning the format of the  binary data of a 
>> music CD identifier frame?  The ID3 v2.x  specifications mention the CD 
>> table of contents.  I have a copy of  IEC 60908 ed.2 but it's not clear 
>> to me which part of this  specification the music CD identifier frame is 
>> referring to.  Does  anyone know which section/page of IEC 60908 ed.2 I 
>> should be  referring to?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Leo
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org
>> 


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From paul.hoffman at gmail.com  Tue Feb 23 16:20:08 2010
From: paul.hoffman at gmail.com (Paul Hoffman)
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:20:08 -0800
Subject: [ID3 Dev] Tags used by common MP3 players?
Message-ID: <1e267dfe1002231620q9d7a4cdod277f9182e7960b@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings. Has someone compiled a list of common MP3 hardware/software
players and the ID3v2 tags that they use for display? As I write some
software, I want to be sure I'm adding the tags that will be useful in
most/all players.

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From njh at aelius.com  Thu Feb 25 10:45:13 2010
From: njh at aelius.com (Nicholas J Humfrey)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 18:45:13 +0000
Subject: [ID3 Dev] NUDGE: Tags used by common MP3 players?
In-Reply-To: <1e267dfe1002250840r673ba2dfh3dcc144775a9a97a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1e267dfe1002250840r673ba2dfh3dcc144775a9a97a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <05709234-D8B0-43E1-AB24-030C57EA16FE@aelius.com>

I am not aware of any such list but implementing everything that  
iTunes supports would be a really good start...

nick.


On 25 Feb 2010, at 16:40, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman at gmail.com> wrote:

> [[ <clonk><clonk> Is this thing on? ]]
>
> Greetings. Has someone compiled a list of common MP3 hardware/software
> players and the ID3v2 tags that they use for display? As I write some
> software, I want to be sure I'm adding the tags that will be useful in
> most/all players.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org
>

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From lcarreon at bigpond.net.au  Mon Feb  1 18:16:36 2010
From: lcarreon at bigpond.net.au (lcarreon at bigpond.net.au)
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:16:36 +1100
Subject: [ID3 Dev] Query on music CD identifier frame (MCI/MCDI)
Message-ID: <15740450.1265076996262.JavaMail.root@nschwwebs03p>

Hi,

I have been studying the ID3 v2.x specifications and I have encountered the music CD idenfitier which isn't very clear to me.  Is there any additional information concerning the format of the binary data of a music CD identifier frame?  The ID3 v2.x specifications mention the CD table of contents.  I have a copy of IEC 60908 ed.2 but it's not clear to me which part of this specification the music CD identifier frame is referring to.  Does anyone know which section/page of IEC 60908 ed.2 I should be referring to?

Regards,
Leo


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From mathiaskunter at yahoo.de  Wed Feb 10 00:01:56 2010
From: mathiaskunter at yahoo.de (Mathias Kunter)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:01:56 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ID3 Dev] Synchronised lyrics/text frames and Byte-Order-Markers
In-Reply-To: <loom.20100208T205819-803@post.gmane.org>
References: <loom.20100208T205819-803@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <374011.69244.qm@web27002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Hi Martin,

I'd say the spec is clear about this: if the text encoding signals UTF-16, then each sync MUST have its individual BOM, since the specification requires that a BOM must always be present when encoding UTF-16 strings. Since each sync is stored as a terminated string, each string must have a BOM, and each string MAY use a different BOM.

It isn't recommended to mix big and little endian strings within the same frame, but your implementation should be able to handle different BOMs when decoding a SYLT frame (or any other frame with multiple UTF-16 encoded strings) - "Be conservative in what you do; be liberal in what you accept from 
others."

> All syncs can have their own individual BOMs.
> This would be crazy - to say the least.

Why? Because it takes, let's say, 25.000 songs * 200 sync strings * 2 bytes BOM = around 10 MB disk space for an entire music collection? Storing album cover artwork takes much more space.

Best regards,
Mathias K.






________________________________
Von: Martin Benkert <martin.benkert at gmail.com>
An: id3v2 at id3.org
Gesendet: Montag, den 8. Februar 2010, 21:02:31 Uhr
Betreff: [ID3 Dev] Synchronised lyrics/text frames and Byte-Order-Markers

Hi,

the synchronized lyrics frame SLT/SYLT supports text encodings, and also
Byte-Order-Markers (BOMs).

It has a 'Content Descriptor' which is simply an encoded string and might
have a BOM, just like all other encoded frames.

But it also has a binary structure of items called 'syncs', which have
this structure

     Terminated text to be synced (typically a syllable)
     Sync identifier (terminator to above string)   $00 (00)
     Time stamp                                     $xx (xx ...)

The first item is plain text. I guess it is encoded according to the
specified encoding of the frame.

But what about BOMs here? In a typical file there might be some hundred
syncs (if they are syllables). If they all have individual BOMs this will
be a lot of data. However, if they do not have BOMs at all, it is not
clear how for instance Little-Endian encoding might be specified.

There are four ways it might be intended to be

- syncs do not have any BOMs at all. This would be nice, but it implies
   Big-Endian byte-order.
- the very first sync might have a BOM that is also applied to all
   following syncs. This appears to be the best way. It also allows to
   specify Little-Endian byte-order. But the ID3 standards do not specify
   this in any way.
- all syncs can have their own individual BOMs. This would be crazy - to
   say the least. But it would comply with the ID3 standards (at least in
   an implicit way).      
- the BOM used by 'Content Descriptor' is also used for the syncs. Might be
   nice - but it beaks all conventions: Other frames with two encoded strings
   (COM/COMM, COMR, GEO/GEOB, ULT/USLT) all might have individual BOMs for
   text fields - only ID3v2.4 specifies 'All strings in the same frame SHALL
   have the same byte order'.

This somehow indicates that the lyrics in a SLT/SYLT frame appears to be a
real oddity with respect to BOMs.

Question here is: Is there a recommended way to specify the byte-order of
the lyrics of synchronized lyrics frames SLT/SYLT?

Thanks
Martin


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From diskuze at cincura.net  Fri Feb 26 00:57:22 2010
From: diskuze at cincura.net (Jiri Cincura)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:57:22 +0100
Subject: [ID3 Dev] Tags used by common MP3 players?
In-Reply-To: <1e267dfe1002231620q9d7a4cdod277f9182e7960b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1e267dfe1002231620q9d7a4cdod277f9182e7960b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d2fa8bfb1002260057p67a45008xc4948b6fcf99e1a8@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 01:20, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman at gmail.com> wrote:
> Has someone compiled a list of common MP3 hardware/software
> players and the ID3v2 tags that they use for display? As I write some
> software, I want to be sure I'm adding the tags that will be useful in
> most/all players.

I don't have a list, but from my experience:
ID3v2.3
frames: TIT2, TPE1, TALB

and almost everything on planet will be able to read this. It's like
the smallest set everybody first implements.

-- 
Jiri {x2} Cincura (CTO x2develop.com)
http://blog.cincura.net/ | http://www.ID3renamer.com

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From paul.hoffman at gmail.com  Thu Feb 25 08:40:47 2010
From: paul.hoffman at gmail.com (Paul Hoffman)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:40:47 -0800
Subject: [ID3 Dev] NUDGE: Tags used by common MP3 players?
Message-ID: <1e267dfe1002250840r673ba2dfh3dcc144775a9a97a@mail.gmail.com>

[[ <clonk><clonk> Is this thing on? ]]

Greetings. Has someone compiled a list of common MP3 hardware/software
players and the ID3v2 tags that they use for display? As I write some
software, I want to be sure I'm adding the tags that will be useful in
most/all players.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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From paul_t100 at fastmail.fm  Fri Feb 26 01:15:34 2010
From: paul_t100 at fastmail.fm (Paul Taylor)
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:15:34 +0000
Subject: [ID3 Dev] Tags used by common MP3 players?
In-Reply-To: <d2fa8bfb1002260057p67a45008xc4948b6fcf99e1a8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1e267dfe1002231620q9d7a4cdod277f9182e7960b@mail.gmail.com> <d2fa8bfb1002260057p67a45008xc4948b6fcf99e1a8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B879136.2080404@fastmail.fm>

Jiri Cincura wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 01:20, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Has someone compiled a list of common MP3 hardware/software
>> players and the ID3v2 tags that they use for display? As I write some
>> software, I want to be sure I'm adding the tags that will be useful in
>> most/all players.
>>     
>
> I don't have a list, but from my experience:
> ID3v2.3
> frames: TIT2, TPE1, TALB
>
> and almost everything on planet will be able to read this. It's like
> the smallest set everybody first implements.
>
>   
This is what I support in my library, and how I use them 
http://www.jthink.net/jaudiotagger/tagmapping.html

Paul

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