From jwhite at cdtag.com Wed Mar 30 02:04:05 2011 From: jwhite at cdtag.com (Jud White) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 04:04:05 -0500 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: <4D92E965.2010800@audioranger.com> References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> <4D91E004.6040808@fastmail.fm> <4D91F8CD.2000601@benjamincook.ca> <4D9208C4.4040800@fastmail.fm> <4D92188B.2020006@benjamincook.ca> <4D92E965.2010800@audioranger.com> Message-ID: Dan and Ben Bennett. For fun, I dug up this related discussion: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Dan O'Neill wrote: > Hi Timothy, > > It's like mostly my fault for not having a more collaborative wiki setup > that enables discussion and revision of the spec. I've been busy with my > day job (http://trusonic.com) over the last year. New hardware and > software and stuff took up a considerable amount of bandwidth. I *will* > make some changes over the next month to enable this spec to get fixed by > those who want to contribute. My apologies to the entire group. > > Dan On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 3:27 AM, Audio Ranger Development < developer at audioranger.com> wrote: > Am 29.03.2011 20:46, schrieb Jud White: > > I'd like to throw in my two cents and say the slash delimiter is not a >> good idea despite the spec and that I'm in favor of having an addendum >> to the 2.3 spec that addresses issues like this. The 2.3 spec is over 10 >> years old and a list of de facto deviations/modifications would be a >> good thing for everybody. >> > > Who is responsible for posting a specification addendum to id3.org? Dan > O'Neill? > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org > For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jwhite at cdtag.com Tue Mar 29 11:46:16 2011 From: jwhite at cdtag.com (Jud White) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 13:46:16 -0500 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: <4D92188B.2020006@benjamincook.ca> References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> <4D91E004.6040808@fastmail.fm> <4D91F8CD.2000601@benjamincook.ca> <4D9208C4.4040800@fastmail.fm> <4D92188B.2020006@benjamincook.ca> Message-ID: I'd like to throw in my two cents and say the slash delimiter is not a good idea despite the spec and that I'm in favor of having an addendum to the 2.3 spec that addresses issues like this. The 2.3 spec is over 10 years old and a list of de facto deviations/modifications would be a good thing for everybody. On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Benjamin Cook wrote: > > You just need to explain yourself better, now that you have some >> modification will be made to the compliance issues page >> > > Thanks. That's all I wanted. > > I figured listing the "compliance issue" that was fixed and stating when it > was fixed was sufficient. My first post to this list contains all the > information needed to allow whoever to verify that what I said was true. I'm > not going to debate this with you. It's absurd enough that despite adding > the compliance issue you're counseling people to violate the specification! > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org > For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From developer at audioranger.com Wed Mar 30 08:18:19 2011 From: developer at audioranger.com (Audio Ranger Development) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 17:18:19 +0200 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> <4D91E004.6040808@fastmail.fm> <4D91F8CD.2000601@benjamincook.ca> <4D9208C4.4040800@fastmail.fm> <4D92188B.2020006@benjamincook.ca> <4D92E965.2010800@audioranger.com> <4D92F8E7.6030908@audioranger.com> Message-ID: <4D9349BB.9060904@audioranger.com> Am 30.03.2011 14:11, schrieb Dan O'Neill: > I too am not certain that a wiki is the right place for drafts and > discussions. It's 5am here in California - I'll write again before > noon with some ideas on how to move forward with the group to get an > addendum drafted in a way that allows for good collaboration with an > eye towards getting something published. When talking about an ID3 specification addendum or revision, we should also care about actively informing the responsible developers of important software vendors. What we have to avoid is a situation like it's for ID3 version 2.4 now - well specified but rarely and badly implemented. Is anyone in good contacts with the development teams of iTunes, Windows Media Player, VLC Media Player, and other important ID3 implementations? Or do you guys read this mailing list anyway? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org From mail at benjamincook.ca Mon Mar 28 12:32:15 2011 From: mail at benjamincook.ca (Benjamin Cook) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:32:15 -0700 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: <4D90E151.4040800@fastmail.fm> References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> <4D90E151.4040800@fastmail.fm> Message-ID: <4D90E23F.5000806@benjamincook.ca> The following bullet point refers to the change I'm talking about. * Improved ID3v2 tag writing standard compliance. I've discussed the matter with Peter (the developer) in the alpha-testing IRC channel. It came to mind because there are other behavioural changes landing in the most recent version that improve compatibility with various spec-bending implementations (while still complying with the spec). If you don't believe me, you're welcome to retest. > On 28/03/2011 20:24, Benjamin Cook wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> PaulTaylor added the following compliance issue for foobar2000: >> >> Null separates multiple values | Null seperates multiple strings in >> text frames, didnt come in until ID3v24 >> >> This was fixed in version 1.1. You can see the changelog here: >> http://www.foobar2000.org/changelog > > Ben , I cannot see this directly referred to in the changelog > > Paul > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org > For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul_t100 at fastmail.fm Mon Mar 28 12:28:17 2011 From: paul_t100 at fastmail.fm (Paul Taylor) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:28:17 +0100 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> Message-ID: <4D90E151.4040800@fastmail.fm> On 28/03/2011 20:24, Benjamin Cook wrote: > Hello all, > > PaulTaylor added the following compliance issue for foobar2000: > > Null separates multiple values | Null seperates multiple strings in > text frames, didnt come in until ID3v24 > > This was fixed in version 1.1. You can see the changelog here: > http://www.foobar2000.org/changelog Ben , I cannot see this directly referred to in the changelog Paul --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org From paul_t100 at fastmail.fm Tue Mar 29 09:28:52 2011 From: paul_t100 at fastmail.fm (Paul Taylor) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 17:28:52 +0100 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: <4D91F8CD.2000601@benjamincook.ca> References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> <4D91E004.6040808@fastmail.fm> <4D91F8CD.2000601@benjamincook.ca> Message-ID: <4D9208C4.4040800@fastmail.fm> On 29/03/2011 16:20, Benjamin Cook wrote: > I would really appreciate it if you would quit second-guessing me, > Paul. I have yet to tell you anything that was less than 100% accurate. > I have no desire to second guess you but your post didn't really give any information about what had changed, so what am I supposed to do ? Ive been down this road before http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=80257&hl= and couldn't get a clear answer then either > 1.1 brought a change where instead of using null, "/" was used. This > brought foobar2000 into total compliance with the spec. > > 1.1.6 beta 2 brought a change where instead of separating with "/", > values were separated by " / ", that is, a space on either side of the > slash is the separator. This is marginally less compliant, but still > sticks to the spec more than pretty much any other implementation I've > seen. This solves the AC/DC problem benski described. > > I do not care to debate the issue. I should hardly need to defend > increasing compliance with a specification! I just want to see that > "compliance issue" dropped, as it is no longer accurate, and hasn't > been for several versions. > > As it appears that the consensus is that the spec is deficient on this > matter, perhaps the "Compliance Issues" page itself should be removed > altogether, or some other page documenting implemented but varying > solutions to the spec's deficiencies should be created. foobar2000 is > a paragon of ID3v2 specification compliance, is one of very few > players supporting some of the more esoteric features of the spec, and > it is quite absurd how much resistance I'm encountering trying to get > a simple update to incorrect documentation. You just need to explain yourself better, now that you have some modification will be made to the compliance issues page, A varying solutions page would be useful but I dont have permissions to create new pages that would have to be done by someone else Paul --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org From mail at benjamincook.ca Tue Mar 29 08:20:45 2011 From: mail at benjamincook.ca (Benjamin Cook) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 08:20:45 -0700 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: <4D91E004.6040808@fastmail.fm> References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> <4D91E004.6040808@fastmail.fm> Message-ID: <4D91F8CD.2000601@benjamincook.ca> I would really appreciate it if you would quit second-guessing me, Paul. I have yet to tell you anything that was less than 100% accurate. 1.1 brought a change where instead of using null, "/" was used. This brought foobar2000 into total compliance with the spec. 1.1.6 beta 2 brought a change where instead of separating with "/", values were separated by " / ", that is, a space on either side of the slash is the separator. This is marginally less compliant, but still sticks to the spec more than pretty much any other implementation I've seen. This solves the AC/DC problem benski described. I do not care to debate the issue. I should hardly need to defend increasing compliance with a specification! I just want to see that "compliance issue" dropped, as it is no longer accurate, and hasn't been for several versions. As it appears that the consensus is that the spec is deficient on this matter, perhaps the "Compliance Issues" page itself should be removed altogether, or some other page documenting implemented but varying solutions to the spec's deficiencies should be created. foobar2000 is a paragon of ID3v2 specification compliance, is one of very few players supporting some of the more esoteric features of the spec, and it is quite absurd how much resistance I'm encountering trying to get a simple update to incorrect documentation. On 3/29/2011 6:35 AM, Paul Taylor wrote: > On 28/03/2011 20:24, Benjamin Cook wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> PaulTaylor added the following compliance issue for foobar2000: >> >> Null separates multiple values | Null seperates multiple strings in >> text frames, didnt come in until ID3v24 >> >> This was fixed in version 1.1. You can see the changelog here: >> http://www.foobar2000.org/changelog >> >> Also, the correct name of the player is, as I wrote previously, >> "foobar2000", not "Foobar 2000". >> >> Thanks. > Ah, you changed it in 1.1.6 not 1.1 ! > > Actually, I agree you would be better keeping the null sperator option > even though it is not compilant > > Paul > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org > For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org From mail at benjamincook.ca Mon Mar 28 12:24:13 2011 From: mail at benjamincook.ca (Benjamin Cook) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:24:13 -0700 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance Message-ID: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> Hello all, PaulTaylor added the following compliance issue for foobar2000: Null separates multiple values | Null seperates multiple strings in text frames, didnt come in until ID3v24 This was fixed in version 1.1. You can see the changelog here: http://www.foobar2000.org/changelog Also, the correct name of the player is, as I wrote previously, "foobar2000", not "Foobar 2000". Thanks. --Ben Cook, aka Canar Hydrogenaudio moderator and foobar2000 alpha-tester. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org From developer at audioranger.com Wed Mar 30 01:27:17 2011 From: developer at audioranger.com (Audio Ranger Development) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 10:27:17 +0200 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> <4D91E004.6040808@fastmail.fm> <4D91F8CD.2000601@benjamincook.ca> <4D9208C4.4040800@fastmail.fm> <4D92188B.2020006@benjamincook.ca> Message-ID: <4D92E965.2010800@audioranger.com> Am 29.03.2011 20:46, schrieb Jud White: > I'd like to throw in my two cents and say the slash delimiter is not a > good idea despite the spec and that I'm in favor of having an addendum > to the 2.3 spec that addresses issues like this. The 2.3 spec is over 10 > years old and a list of de facto deviations/modifications would be a > good thing for everybody. Who is responsible for posting a specification addendum to id3.org? Dan O'Neill? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org From paul_t100 at fastmail.fm Tue Mar 29 06:35:00 2011 From: paul_t100 at fastmail.fm (Paul Taylor) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 14:35:00 +0100 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> Message-ID: <4D91E004.6040808@fastmail.fm> On 28/03/2011 20:24, Benjamin Cook wrote: > Hello all, > > PaulTaylor added the following compliance issue for foobar2000: > > Null separates multiple values | Null seperates multiple strings in > text frames, didnt come in until ID3v24 > > This was fixed in version 1.1. You can see the changelog here: > http://www.foobar2000.org/changelog > > Also, the correct name of the player is, as I wrote previously, > "foobar2000", not "Foobar 2000". > > Thanks. Ah, you changed it in 1.1.6 not 1.1 ! Actually, I agree you would be better keeping the null sperator option even though it is not compilant Paul --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org From developer at audioranger.com Wed Mar 30 02:33:27 2011 From: developer at audioranger.com (Audio Ranger Development) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:33:27 +0200 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> <4D91E004.6040808@fastmail.fm> <4D91F8CD.2000601@benjamincook.ca> <4D9208C4.4040800@fastmail.fm> <4D92188B.2020006@benjamincook.ca> <4D92E965.2010800@audioranger.com> Message-ID: <4D92F8E7.6030908@audioranger.com> Am 30.03.2011 11:04, schrieb Jud White: > Dan and Ben Bennett. And are they actually willing to post an addendum? Or are we just talking here without any actual effects? I'm just asking because the ID3 specification seems quite resistent regarding changes or revisions... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org From paul_t100 at fastmail.fm Tue Mar 29 10:45:55 2011 From: paul_t100 at fastmail.fm (Paul Taylor) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 18:45:55 +0100 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: <4D92188B.2020006@benjamincook.ca> References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> <4D91E004.6040808@fastmail.fm> <4D91F8CD.2000601@benjamincook.ca> <4D9208C4.4040800@fastmail.fm> <4D92188B.2020006@benjamincook.ca> Message-ID: <4D921AD3.8090609@fastmail.fm> On 29/03/2011 18:36, Benjamin Cook wrote: > >> You just need to explain yourself better, now that you have some >> modification will be made to the compliance issues page > > Thanks. That's all I wanted. > > I figured listing the "compliance issue" that was fixed and stating > when it was fixed was sufficient. My first post to this list contains > all the information needed to allow whoever to verify that what I said > was true. I think if you want people to do something for you, its best to make it as easy as possible for them which your first post didnt do. > I'm not going to debate this with you. It's absurd enough that despite > adding the compliance issue you're counseling people to violate the > specification! I don't see why its absurd, the fact is that you had functionality that doesn't match the specification and that it was this webpage is for, it is important for users and developers to be aware of these differences, and it seems by adding this to the compliance list its prompted you to take action. That said I don't think the null separator idea is a bad idea, after that is what happens in 2.4, and I have proposed a 2.3.1 specification myself which would allow nulls for all text fields. After all you want multiple values for all kinds of text fields not just the artist field, and only a few fields are specified to use the '/' seperator in v23. So if it was me I would make it optional whether to use null seperators or ' / ' in Foobar2000 Paul --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org From fiji at limey.net Wed Mar 30 04:39:58 2011 From: fiji at limey.net (Ben Bennett) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 07:39:58 -0400 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> <4D91E004.6040808@fastmail.fm> <4D91F8CD.2000601@benjamincook.ca> <4D9208C4.4040800@fastmail.fm> <4D92188B.2020006@benjamincook.ca> <4D92E965.2010800@audioranger.com> <4D92F8E7.6030908@audioranger.com> Message-ID: <20110330113958.GA22187@limey.net> I had set up a wiki at the same time Dan set up his, so I retracted mine in deference to the one at http://id3.org/ So... the wiki is there. http://id3.org/Developer_Information is probably the most relevant section. However, using a wiki to edit the spec is probably not a great idea. We should come to some consensus about what the scope of what we want to do is. I had proposed a 2.4.1 revision that just clarifies what is in 2.4.0 (e.g. the changes to the frame sizes to make them syncsafe) and a few other things. Now, I have no great objection to widening the scope of the discussion if we feel it is necessary. -ben On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 04:41:29AM -0500, Jud White wrote: > I'm sure it's a time issue more than willful resistance. > > Hey Dan, Ben - any chance we can get that wiki that enables discussion and > revision of the spec you were talking about a while ago? > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 4:33 AM, Audio Ranger Development < > developer at audioranger.com> wrote: > > > Am 30.03.2011 11:04, schrieb Jud White: > > > >> Dan and Ben Bennett. > >> > > > > And are they actually willing to post an addendum? Or are we just talking > > here without any actual effects? > > > > I'm just asking because the ID3 specification seems quite resistent > > regarding changes or revisions... > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org > > > > From benski at winamp.com Mon Mar 28 12:55:43 2011 From: benski at winamp.com (Ben Allison) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 15:55:43 -0400 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> Message-ID: Canar (and others) - I realize that the slash-separator is part of the spec, but I have no particular plans to implement it in Winamp as the slash character is a common character used in band names (e.g. AC/DC) and the spec allows no way of escaping to embed a / in the tag. Not that Winamp supports multiple values for the same field, but that's a different issue ;) I personally feel that this is a defect in the spec and should be entirely ignore and null characters should be used as Peter had previously implemented. Are there players other than Foobar 2000 that use multiple values in ID3v2 and do they support the slash character, also? -Ben Allison > Hello all, > > PaulTaylor added the following compliance issue for foobar2000: > > Null separates multiple values | Null seperates multiple strings in text > frames, didnt come in until ID3v24 > > This was fixed in version 1.1. You can see the changelog here: > http://www.foobar2000.org/changelog > > Also, the correct name of the player is, as I wrote previously, > "foobar2000", not "Foobar 2000". > > Thanks. > > --Ben Cook, aka Canar > Hydrogenaudio moderator and foobar2000 alpha-tester. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org > For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org From mail at benjamincook.ca Tue Mar 29 10:36:11 2011 From: mail at benjamincook.ca (Benjamin Cook) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 10:36:11 -0700 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: <4D9208C4.4040800@fastmail.fm> References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> <4D91E004.6040808@fastmail.fm> <4D91F8CD.2000601@benjamincook.ca> <4D9208C4.4040800@fastmail.fm> Message-ID: <4D92188B.2020006@benjamincook.ca> > You just need to explain yourself better, now that you have some > modification will be made to the compliance issues page Thanks. That's all I wanted. I figured listing the "compliance issue" that was fixed and stating when it was fixed was sufficient. My first post to this list contains all the information needed to allow whoever to verify that what I said was true. I'm not going to debate this with you. It's absurd enough that despite adding the compliance issue you're counseling people to violate the specification! --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org From jwhite at cdtag.com Wed Mar 30 02:41:29 2011 From: jwhite at cdtag.com (Jud White) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 04:41:29 -0500 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: <4D92F8E7.6030908@audioranger.com> References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> <4D91E004.6040808@fastmail.fm> <4D91F8CD.2000601@benjamincook.ca> <4D9208C4.4040800@fastmail.fm> <4D92188B.2020006@benjamincook.ca> <4D92E965.2010800@audioranger.com> <4D92F8E7.6030908@audioranger.com> Message-ID: I'm sure it's a time issue more than willful resistance. Hey Dan, Ben - any chance we can get that wiki that enables discussion and revision of the spec you were talking about a while ago? On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 4:33 AM, Audio Ranger Development < developer at audioranger.com> wrote: > Am 30.03.2011 11:04, schrieb Jud White: > >> Dan and Ben Bennett. >> > > And are they actually willing to post an addendum? Or are we just talking > here without any actual effects? > > I'm just asking because the ID3 specification seems quite resistent > regarding changes or revisions... > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org > For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul_t100 at fastmail.fm Tue Mar 29 04:07:29 2011 From: paul_t100 at fastmail.fm (Paul Taylor) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 12:07:29 +0100 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> Message-ID: <4D91BD71.9000305@fastmail.fm> On 28/03/2011 20:55, Ben Allison wrote: > Canar (and others) - > > I realize that the slash-separator is part of the spec, but I have no > particular plans to implement it in Winamp as the slash character is a > common character used in band names (e.g. AC/DC) and the spec allows no > way of escaping to embed a / in the tag. Not that Winamp supports > multiple values for the same field, but that's a different issue ;) I > personally feel that this is a defect in the spec and should be entirely > ignore and null characters should be used as Peter had previously > implemented. Are there players other than Foobar 2000 that use multiple > values in ID3v2 and do they support the slash character, also? > > -Ben Allison Is that what they have changed then (null to /) because Ben has not explained this --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org From developer at audioranger.com Tue Mar 29 06:14:47 2011 From: developer at audioranger.com (Audio Ranger Development) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 15:14:47 +0200 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> Message-ID: <4D91DB47.60504@audioranger.com> Ben, Canar, > I personally feel that this is a defect in the spec and should be entirely > ignore and null characters should be used as Peter had previously > implemented. The question is which solution is the better one in terms of A) compatibility, and B) effectiveness. Regarding compatibility: foobar2000 seems to be the only popular player (under Windows) which uses null bytes to separate multiple artists in ID3 v 2.3 (at least up to version 1.1.5). Other popular players either don't support multiple artists at all in ID3 v 2.3 (iTunes, VLC Media Player, Winamp) or use slash chars (Windows Media Player, Media Monkey). Regarding effectiveness: it might be a good idea to support both slash chars *and* null bytes when reading an ID3 v 2.3 tag. Yes, there is the risk of a false positive match when treating slash chars as separators, and AC/DC is a quite prominent example for that. However, let's rely on facts. Only about 1 or 2 out of 1000 artists contain a slash within their names (source: MusicBrainz database with more than 600.000 artist names stored). In order to further reduce the false positive match rate, a whitelist of the most popular "slash artists" and / or some kind of artist name analysis can be used (the probability of a slash being a separator is higher if there are spaces present which surround the slash, for example). When writing the tag, it entirely depends on which other program should read the tag again afterwards. From a user's point of view, it's important that things work as good as possible on the software or hardware *he* uses. Keeping that in mind, an ID3 implementation should probably write slash separators for iTunes and Winamp users, but may use null separators for foobar and Media Monkey users, for example. In other words: make it an option, and let the user choose the software or hardware your program should be compatible with. The best solution of course would be to officially revise the ID3 v 2.3 specification in order to use null bytes for multiple artists (and for other text fields too). This however won't help much as long as such widely used implementations like iTunes don't care about multiple artists at all. Regards, Mathias K. > > -Ben Allison > >> Hello all, >> >> PaulTaylor added the following compliance issue for foobar2000: >> >> Null separates multiple values | Null seperates multiple strings in text >> frames, didnt come in until ID3v24 >> >> This was fixed in version 1.1. You can see the changelog here: >> http://www.foobar2000.org/changelog >> >> Also, the correct name of the player is, as I wrote previously, >> "foobar2000", not "Foobar 2000". >> >> Thanks. >> >> --Ben Cook, aka Canar >> Hydrogenaudio moderator and foobar2000 alpha-tester. >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org >> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org > For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org From paul_t100 at fastmail.fm Tue Mar 29 12:45:20 2011 From: paul_t100 at fastmail.fm (Paul Taylor) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 20:45:20 +0100 Subject: [ID3 Dev] foobar2000 ID3v2.3 compliance In-Reply-To: <4D92188B.2020006@benjamincook.ca> References: <4D90E05D.1070605@benjamincook.ca> <4D91E004.6040808@fastmail.fm> <4D91F8CD.2000601@benjamincook.ca> <4D9208C4.4040800@fastmail.fm> <4D92188B.2020006@benjamincook.ca> Message-ID: <4D9236D0.3030502@fastmail.fm> On 29/03/2011 18:36, Benjamin Cook wrote: > >> You just need to explain yourself better, now that you have some >> modification will be made to the compliance issues page > > Thanks. That's all I wanted. > > I figured listing the "compliance issue" that was fixed and stating > when it was fixed was sufficient. My first post to this list contains > all the information needed to allow whoever to verify that what I said > was true. It didnt make clear what had changed, I always think if you want somebody to do something for you should make it as easy as possible for them. > I'm not going to debate this with you. It's absurd enough that despite > adding the compliance issue you're counseling people to violate the > specification! I do not think it is absurd, the compliant page lists non-compliance and foobar was non-compliant this is important information for developers and users to ensure the best possible compatibility. But this incompatibility is not in itself all bad, I myself have put forward the idea of a 2.3.1 specification, if I was a the foobar developer I would provide an option to use null or '/' s Paul --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org