[ID3 Dev] Genre suggestion

[Pat Furrie]

Tom,

Does it need to be iron-clad in its implementation in order to succeed?  
Yes, if the kid is making an effort, I suspect they can get around it.  
However, my kids aren't actively trying to listen to content I would set as 
offlimits.  They browse our music library through our Squeezebox, but we 
don't have a ratings mechanism to prevent them from stumbling into music 
which might have otherwise objectionable lyrics.

Yes, parental control and responsibility is a part of this.  But isn't that 
the whole point?  Tim was looking for a means by which he can exhert his 
parental control in a meaningful way.  I'd like the same thing.  Yes, if the 
kid finds some hack around it, then either they're being expressly 
contemptous of my authority or showing signs of original thinking.  Or they 
just want accidentally wander into content that I'd otherwise not have them 
listening to (and I know I have content which fits into that category, and I 
have also wondered how a software solution might aid in that effort).

Gist is: it doesn't have to be perfect to be useful.  The best software I 
work on is done evelutionarily.  When I try to make it all perfect 
out-of-the-gate, its doomed.  Yes, I'd like to get it right from the get-go, 
but often times, that doesn't seem to be the best approach.

I'd rather encourage Tim to try and fail rather than not try at all.

Pat



>From: "Tom Sorensen" <tsorensen at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: id3v2 at id3.org
>To: id3v2 at id3.org
>Subject: Re: [ID3 Dev] Genre suggestion
>Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 22:44:25 -0400
>
>The only solution is to have it as part of a DRM wrapper. Something
>that is, in theory, not changeable or removable. There is absolutely
>no other way to do it that's not easily circumventable.
>
>In theory you could do it outside of such a method, in something like
>an ID3 tag, but only if you force every toolset and library to
>recognize, support, and refuse to "downgrade" the flag. But even then
>anyone with a compiler and source code (or even a specification) could
>circumvent it; it's just a matter of how difficult it is to do.
>
>And I would like to point out that all of the similar efforts to do
>such automatic ratings and restrictions has either been a market
>failure (V-chip) or reasonably easy to disable/fool/circumvent (web
>surfing software). It winds up being a parental responsibility to
>educate and trust your children. And yes, I have two girls of my own.
>
>That said, pursuing such a system is not inherently bad. Go for it.
>But you'll have to get Apple and Microsoft to buy in (and hopefully
>come to a common standard) or else it won't succeed -- they're the two
>big guys on the block at this point, especially Apple with its
>combined hardware and software sales.
>
>And yes, multiple levels of designation are definitely a good idea.
>
>Tom
>
>On 9/15/06, Pat Furrie <pfurrie at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Tom,
>>
>>Now, I don't know if Tim's suggestion is workable.  But he does bring up a
>>problem he's at least giving some thought to solving, and I'm certain 
>>other
>>people have had this as a problem with which to deal.  It's the sort of
>>thing that brought about the ratings codes in movies (quite some time ago)
>>and ratings on TV (more recently).  I've got kids of my own who I want to
>>have some way of helping distinguish which music is appropriate.
>>
>>You've pointed out a couple of challenges.  Perhaps you could provide some
>>constructive analysis.  Devil's advocate is too easy; anyone can do that.
>>But as they say, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the
>>problem.  Tim isn't looking for why it won't work, he's looking for ways 
>>to
>>make it work.
>>
>>Tim: I'd like to see a set of method with more granularity than just 
>>"adult"
>>or not.  "Adult" is a bit slippery, and is defined differently by 
>>different
>>people.  However, the existance of certain key words and concepts are more
>>objective.  You might want to look at how TV has done ratings, and model 
>>it
>>after that.  This way any "adult content" tag methodology could leverage 
>>the
>>methods already adopted, and be more universal across media types 
>>(meaning,
>>not just audio files).
>>
>>We could nay-say and do nothing, or we can get off our butts and do
>>something.  Even if something doesn't work, I'd rather have tried to make 
>>it
>>work than not.
>>
>>Fail fast, succeed sooner.
>>
>>Pat
>>
>>
>> >From: "Tom Sorensen" <tsorensen at gmail.com>
>> >Reply-To: id3v2 at id3.org
>> >To: id3v2 at id3.org
>> >Subject: Re: [ID3 Dev] Genre suggestion
>> >Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:20:40 -0400
>> >
>> >If you want a new Genre, just make one. There is no list of
>> >pre-defined genres for ID3v2. You'd then have to modify whatever
>> >player to not play any music that belonged in that genre (and see
>> >below for the issues with that).
>> >
>> >But that's not what you really want. You want a flag that a music
>> >player would have to check before playing (or, since you seem
>> >concerned about the title, before even displaying). Certainly
>> >possible; there are other similar flags in the ID3v2 spec currently.
>> >
>> >I'll go ahead and object to it as pointless though. Since:
>> >
>> >A) nobody implements anything like this in current players (software
>> >or hardware), and it would be 3-5 years before that would change (and
>> >that's being optimistic; more likely it would never be implemented.
>> >ID3v2.4 is 5 years old now and still has very low uptake),
>> >
>> >B) it would be completely trivial to bypass and/or disable anyway
>> >since you cannot prevent someone from changing the tag (or removing it
>> >entirely).
>> >
>> >Tom Sorensen
>> >
>> >On 9/15/06, Tim Reinarts <tim_reinarts at soniqcast.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Do you have any provisions in the latest spec for adding an "adult
>> >>content"
>> >>genre category?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>I would propose that such a tag would allow parents to control the 
>>content
>> >>being used by their children.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Media player manufacturers can then implement a feature that allows
>> >>parents
>> >>to prevent the player from accessing files with an Adult Content genre.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>It concerns me that some of the most popular content on many sites like
>> >>MTV's URGE are songs with explicit titles.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Regards,
>> >>
>> >>Tim Reinarts
>> >
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>>
>>
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