[ID3 Dev] Genre suggestion

Fri Sep 15 20:54:17 PDT 2006

For what it's worth at this point in the discussion, I would find a "Content
Rating" frame useful.  Admittedly, it's nearly impossible to secure, but
that doesn't render the frame useless or even not useful enough to
implement.  

For example, I've written an audio file manager that implements "Randomizer
Profiles".  I can select the "80's Music" profile and immediately I'm
listening to random tracks selected from my library that match the criteria
"Where Year is between 1980 and 1989; Where Genre Not In ('Spoken Word',
'Comedy', 'Audio Book')".  It would be nice to be able to add some kind of
content rating filtering to the criteria in my Randomizer Profiles.

I'm not looking for something that can't be hacked.  I'm just looking for a
way that I can play some random tracks that would be appropriate to my
audience.  I like Fatboy Slim's song "In Heaven", but I don't want it coming
up in my player while my wife's friends from church are sitting in the next
room.

As for the censorship issue, yeah it would be a kind of censorship.  But for
the very reason that it's unsecured, it would be guaranteed to only be self
imposed censorship.

 - Mitchell S. Honnert

PS: It'd be a steep uphill battle getting any new ID3 frame to be used by
any meaningful numbers, especially one that implements something as
controversial as censorship.  But personally, I would think that the path to
acceptance would start with the big media player applications (WinAmp, WMP,
iTunes, etc), not through the content providers.  Get the feature
implemented so people can tag their own content and use whatever creative
ways of filtering the application developers come up with.  Then the demand
for pre-tagged content would come and perhaps the content providers would
provide it.  Just a theory.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Sorensen [mailto:tsorensen at gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:09 PM
To: id3v2 at id3.org
Subject: Re: [ID3 Dev] Genre suggestion

If that's all you want, then creating your own Genre tags is perfectly
sufficient. Then create a playlist that excludes those tags. It's that
simple.

If you wanted to get a bit more advanced then you'd have to create a
custom ID3v2 tag (XRTG maybe) and modify software to be aware of that
tag when generating playlists, etc. It wouldn't buy you much more than
what using additional genres would, except then you're not "polluting"
the genre field.

But that's not what the original poster asked for. And yes, it is
beyond the scope of an ID3 tag (or any other similar tag), due to the
very nature of the problem.

Tom

On 9/15/06, Ben Allison <benski at winamp.com> wrote:
> Tom,
>
> I think you might be taking this a bit too far.  Or at least certainly
> beyond the scope of an ID3v2 tag :)
>
> It could certainly be useful even if it's insecure.  What if I want to put
> my music collection on 'shuffle' for a party, but want to easily filter
> out anything with inappropriate lyrics.  Or I'm preparing a setlist for a
> radio show - I couldn't play an unedited 'Money' from Pink Floyd's DSOM on
> the air, even though the rest of the album (and the rest of the
> discography) is OK.
>
> -Ben
>
> > The only solution is to have it as part of a DRM wrapper. Something
> > that is, in theory, not changeable or removable. There is absolutely
> > no other way to do it that's not easily circumventable.
> >
> > In theory you could do it outside of such a method, in something like
> > an ID3 tag, but only if you force every toolset and library to
> > recognize, support, and refuse to "downgrade" the flag. But even then
> > anyone with a compiler and source code (or even a specification) could
> > circumvent it; it's just a matter of how difficult it is to do.
> >
> > And I would like to point out that all of the similar efforts to do
> > such automatic ratings and restrictions has either been a market
> > failure (V-chip) or reasonably easy to disable/fool/circumvent (web
> > surfing software). It winds up being a parental responsibility to
> > educate and trust your children. And yes, I have two girls of my own.
> >
> > That said, pursuing such a system is not inherently bad. Go for it.
> > But you'll have to get Apple and Microsoft to buy in (and hopefully
> > come to a common standard) or else it won't succeed -- they're the two
> > big guys on the block at this point, especially Apple with its
> > combined hardware and software sales.
> >
> > And yes, multiple levels of designation are definitely a good idea.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > On 9/15/06, Pat Furrie <pfurrie at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Tom,
> >>
> >> Now, I don't know if Tim's suggestion is workable.  But he does bring
up
> >> a
> >> problem he's at least giving some thought to solving, and I'm certain
> >> other
> >> people have had this as a problem with which to deal.  It's the sort of
> >> thing that brought about the ratings codes in movies (quite some time
> >> ago)
> >> and ratings on TV (more recently).  I've got kids of my own who I want
> >> to
> >> have some way of helping distinguish which music is appropriate.
> >>
> >> You've pointed out a couple of challenges.  Perhaps you could provide
> >> some
> >> constructive analysis.  Devil's advocate is too easy; anyone can do
> >> that.
> >> But as they say, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the
> >> problem.  Tim isn't looking for why it won't work, he's looking for
ways
> >> to
> >> make it work.
> >>
> >> Tim: I'd like to see a set of method with more granularity than just
> >> "adult"
> >> or not.  "Adult" is a bit slippery, and is defined differently by
> >> different
> >> people.  However, the existance of certain key words and concepts are
> >> more
> >> objective.  You might want to look at how TV has done ratings, and
model
> >> it
> >> after that.  This way any "adult content" tag methodology could
leverage
> >> the
> >> methods already adopted, and be more universal across media types
> >> (meaning,
> >> not just audio files).
> >>
> >> We could nay-say and do nothing, or we can get off our butts and do
> >> something.  Even if something doesn't work, I'd rather have tried to
> >> make it
> >> work than not.
> >>
> >> Fail fast, succeed sooner.
> >>
> >> Pat
> >>
> >>
> >> >From: "Tom Sorensen" <tsorensen at gmail.com>
> >> >Reply-To: id3v2 at id3.org
> >> >To: id3v2 at id3.org
> >> >Subject: Re: [ID3 Dev] Genre suggestion
> >> >Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:20:40 -0400
> >> >
> >> >If you want a new Genre, just make one. There is no list of
> >> >pre-defined genres for ID3v2. You'd then have to modify whatever
> >> >player to not play any music that belonged in that genre (and see
> >> >below for the issues with that).
> >> >
> >> >But that's not what you really want. You want a flag that a music
> >> >player would have to check before playing (or, since you seem
> >> >concerned about the title, before even displaying). Certainly
> >> >possible; there are other similar flags in the ID3v2 spec currently.
> >> >
> >> >I'll go ahead and object to it as pointless though. Since:
> >> >
> >> >A) nobody implements anything like this in current players (software
> >> >or hardware), and it would be 3-5 years before that would change (and
> >> >that's being optimistic; more likely it would never be implemented.
> >> >ID3v2.4 is 5 years old now and still has very low uptake),
> >> >
> >> >B) it would be completely trivial to bypass and/or disable anyway
> >> >since you cannot prevent someone from changing the tag (or removing it
> >> >entirely).
> >> >
> >> >Tom Sorensen
> >> >
> >> >On 9/15/06, Tim Reinarts <tim_reinarts at soniqcast.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>Do you have any provisions in the latest spec for adding an "adult
> >> >>content"
> >> >>genre category?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>I would propose that such a tag would allow parents to control the
> >> content
> >> >>being used by their children.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>Media player manufacturers can then implement a feature that allows
> >> >>parents
> >> >>to prevent the player from accessing files with an Adult Content
> >> genre.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>It concerns me that some of the most popular content on many sites
> >> like
> >> >>MTV's URGE are songs with explicit titles.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>Regards,
> >> >>
> >> >>Tim Reinarts
> >> >
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> >>
> >>
> >>
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