[ID3 Dev] Genre suggestion

Sat Sep 16 19:31:07 PDT 2006

Brian,

Personally, I don't have a V-chip enabled TV set at home, but I can still 
imagine how it might be useful, even if the kids might find ways to 
circumvent it.  Ultimately, it is a tool.  It might not work perfectly every 
time, but it is an attempt.  If you have a better solution, by all means, 
let's hear it.

Yes, some parents use TVs for babysittters, and in some cases, depending on 
the situation, that constitutes crappy parenting.  Do we toss out TVs?  What 
about the times when it works, when kids are put in front of programs which 
can more effectively teach them than the best teacher in the county?  That's 
how I felt when I watched the PBS series "The Mechanical Universe" for the 
first time, and learned more calculus in a half hour than I did in several 
hours of college calculus class.

Some kids will hear inappropriate music whether there is an adult tag or 
not.  But others might be relieved of it.  How much good does it need to be 
able to do before it is considered a worthy effort?

Pat

>From: Brian Mearns <bmearns at coe.neu.edu>
>Reply-To: id3v2 at id3.org
>To: id3v2 at id3.org
>Subject: Re: [ID3 Dev] Genre suggestion
>Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 08:16:44 -0400
>
>I guess "object" wasn't quite the correct word for me to use. Looking back, 
>my point wasn't (or at least shouldn't've been) that this shouldn't be 
>implemented or that I would try to stop someone from implementing it, or 
>that I would throw a fit if it is. I meant to imply that I just didn't 
>think it's worthwhile. However, some of the other comments, about 
>auto-playlists and what not, point out some valuable use cases, where I can 
>see that it would be worthwhile.
>
>I guess more to the point I was trying to make (albeit, not very well) is 
>that parent's should not be relying on these types of devices as a 
>replacement for good parenting. Just because you've installed the V-chip, 
>doesn't mean that everything your kids see on television is going to be 
>appropriate, and even if it was, that doesn't mean that you can just sit 
>them in front of the television and use it as a baby sitter. That's still 
>bad parenting regardless of what's on. Same with any form of censorship 
>that gets applied to music. Whether it's effective at stopping them from 
>listening to it or not, it's not effective at addressing the real issue 
>which is not the music, but their  own behavior and language. I can imagine 
>that these types of devices could be useful tools for parents in 
>conjunction with instilling proper behaviors and values, I just think it's 
>important that people realize it's not the answer in itself.
>
>-Brian
>
>Pat Furrie wrote:
>>Brian,
>>
>>While utilities might come into existance to disable to flag, so what?  
>>The lock on the front door of my house is easily foiled by learning how to 
>>make a use a bump key from YouTube, but I still lock the door.  Do you?  
>>Probably.
>>
>>And is it censorship?  Again, so what if it is?  I don't tell the kids 
>>what my wife and I do in the bedroom.  Censorship?  So what.  Part of 
>>being a parent is making choices about what a kid is exposed to at a 
>>certain age.  For mine, they get differing levels of access based on their 
>>ability to deal with it.  You can call it censorship, I'll call it 
>>limiting.
>>
>>We're just looking for tools to help us set up limiting for our kids.  I'm 
>>not going to stop trying just because some kids might try to get around 
>>it.  Others aren't.  Even if you disagree, why would you care if someone 
>>tried, or that the tools were made to exist in order to make that attempt?
>>
>>Don't censor the effort.
>>
>>Pat
>>
>>
>>>From: Brian Mearns <bmearns at coe.neu.edu>
>>>Reply-To: id3v2 at id3.org
>>>To: id3v2 at id3.org
>>>Subject: Re: [ID3 Dev] Genre suggestion
>>>Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 23:25:35 -0400
>>>
>>> >Tim isn't looking for why it won't work, he's looking
>>> > for ways to make it work.
>>>
>>>Spoken like a true manager.
>>>
>>>Personally, I have minor objections to this as a matter of principle; 
>>>it's a minor form of censorship, though granted it's no worse than the 
>>>V-chip and similar technologies. But sheltering your kids from the world 
>>>isn't protecting them. Even if you prevent them from playing certain 
>>>songs because of language of "adult-themes", they're still going to be 
>>>exposed to it else where; on tv, in movies, from their friends, siblings, 
>>>class-mates, &c. The important thing is to teach your kids the difference 
>>>between what they see or hear, and what's appropriate for them to say or 
>>>do. And no amount of sheltering will make up for good parenting. Now I 
>>>know that sounds very high and mighty, and I'm not trying to accuse 
>>>anyone of being a bad parent; I understand there's a lot of scary stuff 
>>>out there and we want to protect our kids from it. But like I said, 
>>>they're going to be exposed to it one way or another, and hiding it from 
>>>them, not addressing the real issue, is only going to make it harder to 
>>>cope with when they finally are.
>>>
>>>Alright, so that was less ID3 and more rant. Come down to it, like Tom 
>>>said, you can't possibly prevent someone from editing the file they've 
>>>downloaded. If this system really did take off, it wouldn't take more 
>>>than a few days before download.com is filled with freeware apps to 
>>>disable to flag, and blogs all over the web have instructions on how to 
>>>do it in note pad.
>>>
>>>-Brian Mearns
>>>
>>>Pat Furrie wrote:
>>>>Tom,
>>>>
>>>>Now, I don't know if Tim's suggestion is workable.  But he does bring up 
>>>>a problem he's at least giving some thought to solving, and I'm certain 
>>>>other people have had this as a problem with which to deal.  It's the 
>>>>sort of thing that brought about the ratings codes in movies (quite some 
>>>>time ago) and ratings on TV (more recently).  I've got kids of my own 
>>>>who I want to have some way of helping distinguish which music is 
>>>>appropriate.
>>>>
>>>>You've pointed out a couple of challenges.  Perhaps you could provide 
>>>>some constructive analysis.  Devil's advocate is too easy; anyone can do 
>>>>that.  But as they say, if you're not part of the solution, you're part 
>>>>of the problem.  Tim isn't looking for why it won't work, he's looking 
>>>>for ways to make it work.
>>>>
>>>>Tim: I'd like to see a set of method with more granularity than just 
>>>>"adult" or not.  "Adult" is a bit slippery, and is defined differently 
>>>>by different people.  However, the existance of certain key words and 
>>>>concepts are more objective.  You might want to look at how TV has done 
>>>>ratings, and model it after that.  This way any "adult content" tag 
>>>>methodology could leverage the methods already adopted, and be more 
>>>>universal across media types (meaning, not just audio files).
>>>>
>>>>We could nay-say and do nothing, or we can get off our butts and do 
>>>>something.  Even if something doesn't work, I'd rather have tried to 
>>>>make it work than not.
>>>>
>>>>Fail fast, succeed sooner.
>>>>
>>>>Pat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: "Tom Sorensen" <tsorensen at gmail.com>
>>>>>Reply-To: id3v2 at id3.org
>>>>>To: id3v2 at id3.org
>>>>>Subject: Re: [ID3 Dev] Genre suggestion
>>>>>Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:20:40 -0400
>>>>>
>>>>>If you want a new Genre, just make one. There is no list of
>>>>>pre-defined genres for ID3v2. You'd then have to modify whatever
>>>>>player to not play any music that belonged in that genre (and see
>>>>>below for the issues with that).
>>>>>
>>>>>But that's not what you really want. You want a flag that a music
>>>>>player would have to check before playing (or, since you seem
>>>>>concerned about the title, before even displaying). Certainly
>>>>>possible; there are other similar flags in the ID3v2 spec currently.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'll go ahead and object to it as pointless though. Since:
>>>>>
>>>>>A) nobody implements anything like this in current players (software
>>>>>or hardware), and it would be 3-5 years before that would change (and
>>>>>that's being optimistic; more likely it would never be implemented.
>>>>>ID3v2.4 is 5 years old now and still has very low uptake),
>>>>>
>>>>>B) it would be completely trivial to bypass and/or disable anyway
>>>>>since you cannot prevent someone from changing the tag (or removing it
>>>>>entirely).
>>>>>
>>>>>Tom Sorensen
>>>>>
>>>>>On 9/15/06, Tim Reinarts <tim_reinarts at soniqcast.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Do you have any provisions in the latest spec for adding an "adult 
>>>>>>content"
>>>>>>genre category?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I would propose that such a tag would allow parents to control the 
>>>>>>content
>>>>>>being used by their children.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Media player manufacturers can then implement a feature that allows 
>>>>>>parents
>>>>>>to prevent the player from accessing files with an Adult Content 
>>>>>>genre.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It concerns me that some of the most popular content on many sites 
>>>>>>like
>>>>>>MTV's URGE are songs with explicit titles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Tim Reinarts
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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