[ID3 Dev] Genre suggestion

[Tom Sorensen]

On 9/16/06, Pat Furrie <pfurrie at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Whoever had the idea of giving songs/music/media a single "genre"
> classification from the outset was fantastically short-sighted.

They were fantastically limited by having a single byte to implement
genres into. You could argue that ID3v1 was a bad idea in the first
place, but there are historical reasons for its small size, location,
and format as well.

> In terms of the current "adult" genre concept, we have a problem that,
> should we apply a new "adult" genre to the list, then that's it: a song is
> no longer rock or jazz or classical or whatever.  It is adult.

No, because ID3v2.3 and .4 support multiple genres. Admittedly the
support in 2.3 is rather vague, but that hasn't stopped a lot of
people from using it. If nothing else, space delimited genres with
substring searches works fairly well (which, again, is how iTunes
implements it).

> Bit map the genre/category/groups information.

This has been suggested before and it's a complete disaster waiting to
happen. What happens when someone creates a whole new genre that
doesn't easily fall into previous ones? Trying to shoehorn new genres
into old ones is more of an issue, IMO, than having disagreements on
what genre a song belongs to, or mispellings, or any of the other
issues with free-form Genre fields.

> Who decides?  A database, run wiki-style

That's not a solution because it doesn't help embedded devices. And
those are far too large a part of the market to simply ignore.

> Some people will say that "a limited genre set is insufficient" yet they
> seem satisfied with the current tiny number of ID3 genres.

The number is tiny only if you restrict yourself to the ID3v1 list --
which is specifically deprecated in the ID3v2 spec.

I wouldn't mind seeing a "Content Rating" field in the spec, as you
and others have given valid uses that don't require iron-clad
protection (which, again, is what Tim basically asked for at the start
of the thread -- it has diverged since). And it's definitely a better
idea than having an additional entry in Genre.

And, as a final (offtopic) note -- if you've bought a TV 13" or larger
since 2000, you have a V-chip enabled TV. And all broadcasters are
required to put identifiers in their shows that the V-chip uses. It's
still virtually unused, and most people don't even know that their TV
has the feature.

Tom

> >From: "Tom Sorensen" <tsorensen at gmail.com>
> >Reply-To: id3v2 at id3.org
> >To: id3v2 at id3.org
> >Subject: Re: [ID3 Dev] Genre suggestion
> >Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 23:09:23 -0400
> >
> >If that's all you want, then creating your own Genre tags is perfectly
> >sufficient. Then create a playlist that excludes those tags. It's that
> >simple.
> >
> >If you wanted to get a bit more advanced then you'd have to create a
> >custom ID3v2 tag (XRTG maybe) and modify software to be aware of that
> >tag when generating playlists, etc. It wouldn't buy you much more than
> >what using additional genres would, except then you're not "polluting"
> >the genre field.
> >
> >But that's not what the original poster asked for. And yes, it is
> >beyond the scope of an ID3 tag (or any other similar tag), due to the
> >very nature of the problem.
> >
> >Tom
> >
> >On 9/15/06, Ben Allison <benski at winamp.com> wrote:
> >>Tom,
> >>
> >>I think you might be taking this a bit too far.  Or at least certainly
> >>beyond the scope of an ID3v2 tag :)
> >>
> >>It could certainly be useful even if it's insecure.  What if I want to put
> >>my music collection on 'shuffle' for a party, but want to easily filter
> >>out anything with inappropriate lyrics.  Or I'm preparing a setlist for a
> >>radio show - I couldn't play an unedited 'Money' from Pink Floyd's DSOM on
> >>the air, even though the rest of the album (and the rest of the
> >>discography) is OK.
> >>
> >>-Ben
> >>
> >> > The only solution is to have it as part of a DRM wrapper. Something
> >> > that is, in theory, not changeable or removable. There is absolutely
> >> > no other way to do it that's not easily circumventable.
> >> >
> >> > In theory you could do it outside of such a method, in something like
> >> > an ID3 tag, but only if you force every toolset and library to
> >> > recognize, support, and refuse to "downgrade" the flag. But even then
> >> > anyone with a compiler and source code (or even a specification) could
> >> > circumvent it; it's just a matter of how difficult it is to do.
> >> >
> >> > And I would like to point out that all of the similar efforts to do
> >> > such automatic ratings and restrictions has either been a market
> >> > failure (V-chip) or reasonably easy to disable/fool/circumvent (web
> >> > surfing software). It winds up being a parental responsibility to
> >> > educate and trust your children. And yes, I have two girls of my own.
> >> >
> >> > That said, pursuing such a system is not inherently bad. Go for it.
> >> > But you'll have to get Apple and Microsoft to buy in (and hopefully
> >> > come to a common standard) or else it won't succeed -- they're the two
> >> > big guys on the block at this point, especially Apple with its
> >> > combined hardware and software sales.
> >> >
> >> > And yes, multiple levels of designation are definitely a good idea.
> >> >
> >> > Tom
> >> >
> >> > On 9/15/06, Pat Furrie <pfurrie at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> Tom,
> >> >>
> >> >> Now, I don't know if Tim's suggestion is workable.  But he does bring
> >>up
> >> >> a
> >> >> problem he's at least giving some thought to solving, and I'm certain
> >> >> other
> >> >> people have had this as a problem with which to deal.  It's the sort
> >>of
> >> >> thing that brought about the ratings codes in movies (quite some time
> >> >> ago)
> >> >> and ratings on TV (more recently).  I've got kids of my own who I want
> >> >> to
> >> >> have some way of helping distinguish which music is appropriate.
> >> >>
> >> >> You've pointed out a couple of challenges.  Perhaps you could provide
> >> >> some
> >> >> constructive analysis.  Devil's advocate is too easy; anyone can do
> >> >> that.
> >> >> But as they say, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of
> >>the
> >> >> problem.  Tim isn't looking for why it won't work, he's looking for
> >>ways
> >> >> to
> >> >> make it work.
> >> >>
> >> >> Tim: I'd like to see a set of method with more granularity than just
> >> >> "adult"
> >> >> or not.  "Adult" is a bit slippery, and is defined differently by
> >> >> different
> >> >> people.  However, the existance of certain key words and concepts are
> >> >> more
> >> >> objective.  You might want to look at how TV has done ratings, and
> >>model
> >> >> it
> >> >> after that.  This way any "adult content" tag methodology could
> >>leverage
> >> >> the
> >> >> methods already adopted, and be more universal across media types
> >> >> (meaning,
> >> >> not just audio files).
> >> >>
> >> >> We could nay-say and do nothing, or we can get off our butts and do
> >> >> something.  Even if something doesn't work, I'd rather have tried to
> >> >> make it
> >> >> work than not.
> >> >>
> >> >> Fail fast, succeed sooner.
> >> >>
> >> >> Pat
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >From: "Tom Sorensen" <tsorensen at gmail.com>
> >> >> >Reply-To: id3v2 at id3.org
> >> >> >To: id3v2 at id3.org
> >> >> >Subject: Re: [ID3 Dev] Genre suggestion
> >> >> >Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:20:40 -0400
> >> >> >
> >> >> >If you want a new Genre, just make one. There is no list of
> >> >> >pre-defined genres for ID3v2. You'd then have to modify whatever
> >> >> >player to not play any music that belonged in that genre (and see
> >> >> >below for the issues with that).
> >> >> >
> >> >> >But that's not what you really want. You want a flag that a music
> >> >> >player would have to check before playing (or, since you seem
> >> >> >concerned about the title, before even displaying). Certainly
> >> >> >possible; there are other similar flags in the ID3v2 spec currently.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I'll go ahead and object to it as pointless though. Since:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >A) nobody implements anything like this in current players (software
> >> >> >or hardware), and it would be 3-5 years before that would change (and
> >> >> >that's being optimistic; more likely it would never be implemented.
> >> >> >ID3v2.4 is 5 years old now and still has very low uptake),
> >> >> >
> >> >> >B) it would be completely trivial to bypass and/or disable anyway
> >> >> >since you cannot prevent someone from changing the tag (or removing
> >>it
> >> >> >entirely).
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Tom Sorensen
> >> >> >
> >> >> >On 9/15/06, Tim Reinarts <tim_reinarts at soniqcast.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>Do you have any provisions in the latest spec for adding an "adult
> >> >> >>content"
> >> >> >>genre category?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>I would propose that such a tag would allow parents to control the
> >> >> content
> >> >> >>being used by their children.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>Media player manufacturers can then implement a feature that allows
> >> >> >>parents
> >> >> >>to prevent the player from accessing files with an Adult Content
> >> >> genre.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>It concerns me that some of the most popular content on many sites
> >> >> like
> >> >> >>MTV's URGE are songs with explicit titles.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>Regards,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>Tim Reinarts
> >> >> >
> >> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org
> >> >> >For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org
> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org
> >For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org
> >
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org
>
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: id3v2-unsubscribe at id3.org
For additional commands, e-mail: id3v2-help at id3.org